SPD chairman Gabriel also condemns Israel’s occupation policy
JVG: After your visit to Hebron you said that an apartheid-regime reigns there. Your reason for saying that?
GABRIEL: First of all, thank you for saying that I called the situation in Hebron comparable to apartheid, because I am far from comparing the former apartheid state in South Africa with the State of Israel. Of course Israel is a democracy, the only democratic land in the region. When, however, you go to Hebron and see under what conditions they cower – that’s something that reminds one of divided human rights. I simply think that that state of affairs is intolerable. Especially because Israel is a democratic state, it shouldn’t permit the existence of such conditions. I see now by many reactions to my statement that many people, who feel close to Israel, say ‘My goodness, the chairman of the SPD maintains that Israel is an apartheid state’. I repeat: I did not say that; if a misunderstanding has come about, I’m sorry. I refuse to get into the same boat with people who discredit Israel. I have been travelling to the region for 20 years now, I am a member of the German- Israeli Association – the reproach is quite crazy. One may, however, not remain silent about these conditions. What is being done to the Palestinians, especially in Hebron, is not worthy of human beings. To be honest, I wish that the anger about the conditions in Hebron was at least as big as that about the word I chose to describe these conditions.
What is your view of the situation in the Middle East?
What has depressed me most over the past decades is that we have been watching fundamentalists on both sides of the Israel-Palestine confl ict destroy all hopes, again and again, for a peaceful solution, or at least for a solution without violence. Right now, there is a real risk that the justifi ed concerns about the Iranian nuclear arms program will push other important issues out of the way.
The religious leader of Iran is calling Israel a cancerous tumor …
Any German who is just a little versed in history will be reminded of the language used by the Nazi criminals. We cannot, we must not dismiss this as an absurdity or the raving of lunatics. This terrible rhetoric certainly ties in with domestic politics in Iran, and it is probably based on complete ignorance of European history in the 20th century. One negative consequence of the largely self-imposed isolation of Iran is that the elites there understand other parts of the world less and less. However, no one can pretend there is no danger that words like these might be followed by actions. Like the Merkel administration, the SPD is also doing everything it can to avoid an armed confl ict in the region. A military strike against Iran would defi nitely not resolve the situation.
Diplomacy helped
After 10 years of negotiations, Iran is now on the verge of having a nuclear weapons program…
I understand the disappointment and horror that many feel about a nuclear threat from Iran. However, we must not forget that people have been saying for 10 years that Iran was on the verge of developing a nuclear weapon. At the very least, we can safely say that the diplomatic efforts undertaken over the last 10 years have helped prevent this from happening. These days, critics like to turn this argument on its head and claim that the negotiations were pointless. If that were true, then either the claim that Iran was on the cusp of developing a nuclear weapon was false, or the negotiations did serve a purpose after all. In any case, I am strictly against sabotaging the negotiation process with a military strike. After all, Israel is aware, like the rest of us, that a military strike would delay the Iranian nuclear program by two or three years at most.
Could an embargo against Iran help prevent an open war?
Before it comes to that, we must really pursue and develop every conceivable avenue of discussion with Iran. The complete political isolation of Iran also has negative consequences. Only through a political process can we succeed in recognizing the interests of Iran in order to prevail in our own interest – ensuring that Iran abandons its efforts to develop nuclear weapons and refrains from other acts of aggression against Israel. This political process does not currently exist. Instead, we have saberrattling rhetoric that could quickly become a self-fulfi lling prophecy … If Iran does not allow this process to develop, or if Iran is not willing to commit to transparency or halting its nuclear weapons program, then we must of course intensify our economic sanctions. We must close the loopholes and ensure that no one can conduct business with Iran on the sly. That goes for Germany as well. Many in the West fear the economic consequences, such as oil shortages. If we are serious about our own values and want to rule out war as a means to get what we want, then we cannot tolerate loopholes because we are afraid of economic hardships.
Sources of xenophobia
The report on anti-Semitism in Germany was released recently…
Whenever such a report is released, there is tremendous surprise, followed by alarm and outrage. I remember the SINUS Study that Chancellor Helmut Schmidt commissioned after the Oktoberfest attacks in 1980. That study also surveyed the populace on their reaction to the National Socialist party platform points without naming the source. The result showed a 13 percent potential for right-wing extremism in the German public. Anti-immigrant sentiment, anti- Semitism and xenophobia seem to be part of modern industrial societies. We can see it in Germany, France, the United States, and Great Britain. This originates in the fact that industrial societies produce disruptions in people’s lives that trigger insecurity and a fear of loss. In response, people seek an ideological orientation.
Now everyone supports banning the neo-Nazi party NPD…
The first attempt to ban the NPD was initiated by Bavaria and Lower Saxony while I was Minister President in Hanover. I am well aware of the pitfalls of legal proceedings to disband a political party. If we had an option to withdraw state funds from the NPD in some other way, I would choose that path. However, this option is not available to us, and therefore our only choice is to pursue the process of banning the party.
Anti-Semitism and xenophobia are often mentioned in the same breath, but isn’t there something unique about anti-Semitism?
People look for scapegoats, either for their own perceived misfortunes or the perceived national misfortune. Anti-Semitism, however, is more ambitious. Anti-Semitism seeks to explain the world through a “conspiracy of international Jewry.” It is the same in Germany, the USA, and Saudi-Arabia. When you speak to people in confi dence, you will hear answers like this even in circles where you would never have dreamed you would ever encounter anti-Semitic sentiment.
Interview by Rafael Seligmann